Mia Culpa

[rich]

If one is born into any of the Judea- Christian-Mohammud Religious Persuasions, from cradle to grave, they are taught that we are sinners. I do not know how Hindu's, Buddhists, Taoists etc. teachings of sin are. Also not too sure about what the Muslims teach about sin, but presume similar to the religions which worship the same God.

Would like to hear other viewpoints on the topic of sin. :( : :ph34r:

[Polaris]

Hiya Rich :)

I see 'sin' as being somewhat relative to an individual.. You can have a group of individuals who gather together and agree that something is a sin but there will always be somebody else who doesn't agree.

A few months after my son was born I was visited by one of my mother-in-law's old friends. She inquired as to when I was having my son christened and I told her we would not be having it done. She called me and my infant son heathens. I never forgot the occasion because is just carried such an air of irony. The word heathen really only means something to somebody who is religious in the "Christian" sense and to such a person it would be a definate insult to be called a heathen. But if somebody was insulted by being called a heathen because it implied they did not acknowledge God then chances are they are not heathen. For a real "heathen" such as myself, the reaction to the attempted insult becomes more "Yeah. So what??" :huh:

So by being a heathen, I was regarded as a sinner by this lady yet I do not consider myself a sinner. I would speculate that it was likely I had as much virtue as she did. :)

I do think that there are wholesome activities and less wholesome activities and for the most part I think we all agree on the major ones whether you called them sins or misdeeds or crimes or unwholesome or whatever. I just prefer not to call them 'sin' because to me that implies an action contrary to the law of God. Since I don't believe in God the word 'sin' just doesn't feel appropriate to me, personally.

[rich]

Hello Polaris,

Found your reply very interesting. Your mother-in-law was not responding as Christ would by calling you and your son heathens by
not being baptized.

Once again, all human-beings Christian or non-christian have short comings, and it has nothing to do with what religion they feel comfortable with. Probably it is best not to prejudge anyone. All have problems. I think what is most important is how one reacts with other people. Reacting kindly when not expected to does more good than anything else.

How does Buddha regard sin? Does he or she ever admit to doing wrong? ,making mistakes? intentionally harming another person to get even?

Christians, I think , emphasize sin too much. Buddhists, I thnk, not enough. Some think themselves perfect. Maybe they are. Are they as forgiving as Christ? Many questions to ask. Looking for :blink: answers. :unsure:

[Polaris]

:) Rich

It wasn't my mother-in-law who called me a heathen, it was her friend. I can assure you, my mother-in-law would (has) probably called me worse. ;)

I agree what you say about people's shortcomings it having nothing to do with religions. People just are.

How does Buddha regard sin? Does he or she ever admit to doing wrong? ,making mistakes? intentionally harming another person to get even?

I would say that Buddha would regard sin as karma. Karma is not good or bad. It just is. An action will result in a reaction and the nature of that reaction will reflect whether the action was wholesome or not. A "reap what ye sow"-"what goes around comes around" type of thing. By wholesome is mean that one should act without desire, delusions and without malice and it applies to not just physical action but thoughts as well.

People make mistakes. But mistakes which occur due to carelessness would be unwholesome. Example would be a driver hitting a pedestrian because he was distracted by his cell phone. That driver would never intentionally hit anyone but because he was not mindful it resulted in a serious accident. Theoretically, the pedestrian was a victim of the accident because of his past deeds, whether in this lifetime or a previous one. It's difficult to explain. Thomas could do better.

I personally think that if you've realized you've made a mistake it is always best to try and remedy it as best you can. To not admit wrong doing would be a fairly vain attitude which suggest that person might be over'y attached to his/her "self" image.

Intentionally harming another for whatever reason is...well, I can't even imagine it. :o Never ever ever do that. People have their reasons for doing what they do even if what they do hurts us.

Christians, I think , emphasize sin too much. Buddhists, I thnk, not enough. Some think themselves perfect. Maybe they are. Are they as forgiving as Christ? Many questions to ask. Looking for answers.

I think somebody who follows a Buddhist path seriously are the following:
1. they are very aware of their actions and how they effect others. They are extremely mindful to make every effort to act with compassion in all ways. If they are successful then technically "sin" becomes a non-issue. If they are not successful then they keep practicing.
2. they would not consider themselves perfect. That would be delusional. You can be both perfect and delusional, unless you're "Perfectly Delusion" ;) (if you're perfectly delusional then you probably aren't Buddhist)
3) IMO, there is nothing to forgive because it's not my place to judge. :)

Have you ever read the Buddhist web page associated with the BigView? It's what lead me here to this forum. It's nicely written, very concise and easy to understand. You may find answers there.

The BigView Buddhism Page (http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/)

Rich, I have to say that personally Buddhism was a perfect fit for me. I grew up in a Christian household, went to church every Sunday until I was about 10. Attended Protestant school where we sang hymns in the morning before settling down to our school work. It really meant nothing to me. I just didn't "get it". A few years ago I stumbled upon Buddhism. I read "The Art of Happiness" by the Dalai Lama. It was as though a light went off in my head. I was, 37 years old at the time and I finally realize for the very first time what I was all my life. I was honestly amazed that there were other people out there who thought the same way I did. You can't imagine how exciting that was. It was something I got "get" and in fact had been "getting it" for years without knowing what it was called. Now it's all academic for me. I'm an admitted novice and I don't have Buddhist book smarts that many other people my age might have but I have direction. Now I'm 42 and I'm just as excited by this whole thing daily as I was the very first day I picked up that book.

[Thomas Knierim]

Originally posted by rich@Jun 20 2003, 04:54 AM
How does Buddha regard sin? Does he or she ever admit to doing wrong? ,making mistakes? intentionally harming another person to get even?
Although Polaris has already answered this very eloquently, I like to add one specific point. The Buddha regarded actions that lead to unwholesome karma as unskillful. This means that all sins are mistakes in some sense, even if committed intentionally. The particular intention that leads to wrongdoing results from a misguided, deluded view. In some cases, these deluded views may be deeply entrenched, in other cases they are just temporary blindness. In any case, the only way to improvement is the abandonment of wrong views. According to the Buddha, this is the beginning and the end of the path. Perfect wisdom knows no sin.

Cheers, Thomas

[rich]

Polaris,

Thought before, was replying to your post, but it turned out to be a letter. Tried to preview and copy manuever, so it ended up in the circular file. :huh: :o

It was wonderful to hear how you are finding happiness in Buddhism. As you know, am almost twice your age, and am still searching. If
I had died during my normal life span, would not be posting now. Maybe telepathic messages from another dimension, but not in forums.

But since still living and able to post, thank you for including bigview buddhist link in your post.
I did read it before, reread some of it again before, and will reread more at another time.

In Eastern Carolina, where we live, there are no Buddhist Temples, or places for Buddhists to congregate. Definitely no pressures put on anyone to become a buddhist.

Yet in Christianity, Evangelism is all over, each denomination and religion thinking their way is the only true way.

At the age of 82, my wife is worrying that if I precede her in death, would I want a Christian burial or service if cremated. Well, I try to tell
her, not if I am going to be regarded by those conducting the service that I am poluting hallowed ground. Do not wish to contaminate anything.
Wife is hoping that I will start receiving the sacraments again. My feelings is that The Lord Jesus gave His Life for All, and not for a select few. Maybe I view things from the wrong light.
I would like to make my wife happy, but I do not want to become too narrowminded. Try to tell my wife that some of the heirarchy of The Church are not nice people, and are using the people by scaring and making people live in fear. :blink: :unsure:

Have been going to mass with wife most every Saturday Evening. I do not receive the sacraments any more, for I do not receive them, since I do not agree with the conditions the Church imposes on people to receive. :angry:

[Polaris]

Rich,

I would have sworn there were no Buddhist temples and such around near where I live either but lo and behold I have found web pages referring to places. I don't belong to any of them because they are in the city and I am in the country. The down side is that there are things I know I need help with and with life and family as it is, travelling 60 miles to the city doesn't fit into the schedule very well. I bide my time working on my own and things work out, I suppose, as they must.

But not being a member of a 'religious community' such as a church or temple does not make me any less sure of the path I must follow. And the same thing should probably be for you. You sound like a man of deep ethical and moral conviction. You attend church weekly but choose not to take the sacrament for very specific reasons which mean a lot to you. This doesn't make you any less Christian than any of the people who attend your church and DO take the sacrament. It's really just a ritual and has little to do with what Jesus, the man, was trying to convey with his message. So don't confuse the ritual with the message because the message contains the lesson that is really what's important. What's important is understanding the lesson and living by it daily, with conviction. Eating bread and wine in church does not make a person a good Christian. There's more to it than that.

I doubt VERY much you would pollute hallowed ground :)

[Ronagon]

As long as human beings have the capacity to get bored, they will be sinners.

Next question?

[Polaris]

Originally posted by Ronagon@Jun 20 2003, 11:21 PM
As long as human beings have the capacity to get bored, they will be sinners.

Next question?
I disagree, Ronagon. A bored person is just as capable of doing good. Do you sin each time you find yourself bored?? :( :o

[rich]

Originally posted by Polaris+Jun 21 2003, 08:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Polaris @ Jun 21 2003, 08:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ronagon@Jun 20 2003, 11:21 PM
As long as human beings have the capacity to get bored, they will be sinners.*

Next question?
I disagree, Ronagon. A bored person is just as capable of doing good. Do you sin each time you find yourself bored?? :( :o [/b][/quote]
Getting bored, 'could be' an occasion to sin, if one does not spend their time wisely', but if one does not aware of it being sinful, it is not a sin. I think.
If one is not doing actions to harm others, that is not sinful.
By doing the best you can, is not sinful. Doing a little better, of course is better. Not doing your best, then, Why?

Sinful to whom?

God? Holy Spirit? You? :unsure:

Something to think about.

[Polaris]

Getting bored, 'could be' an occasion to sin, if one does not spend their time wisely', but if one does not aware of it being sinful, it is not a sin. I think.

This reminds me of something that was in our local news about 20 years ago. It seems in the more rural areas nearby it has long been the custom of certain families to engage in incest. This has been going on for generations and to these people it was fully acceptable. Well, one day it hit the fan. Somebody called the cops and a whole bunch of men were arrested for incest and having sex with minors etc... something they had no idea was wrong. It was really all tragic for them all. None of them really knew what was going on. :(

[rich]

In reply to Polaris' post:

The trouble with sexual pleasure is, it feels so good, when happening, :P but its misuse happens, when people get carried away by its pleasure, :lol: without realizing the consequences of their actions, which may be unwanted children. :ph34r:

Think that if the young people could realize what the consequences of their actions are, they may consider restraining, before impregnating.

[Polaris]

True Richie, but society today seems to place such a huge importance on sex. It's all over TV, movies and music. Even ads in newspapers and magazines are suggestive. I sometimes think that we've gone too far. Freedom is wonderful but there are limits to the propriety of our actions and in so many ways our society has crossed the line.

[Ronagon]

I think that boredom leads to sin, because bored people can deal with that boredom any number of ways, even positively, but nothing generates as much melee and chaos as causing strife.

For the bored person, that is very satisfying.

It might likely be sheer hell for whoever's being mucked with, but for the bored and overly secure mischief-maker, it's quite stimulating.

This is why people who commit the worst evils, get outraged when you tell them they're evil. Because all they know is that they're feeling so good and having such a great time, how could THAT possibly be wrong?

They forget that the person on the other end, is having a totally opposite experience. For a predator to enjoy the blissful feeling of a full belly, there logically has to be a miserable prey animal on the other end of things.

And very often, conscience and fun are inversely proportional. Many times, when you're having fun, you cannot see how it might be at the expense of someone else...

But there is also another truth that arises out of that: very often, the situation is such, that in order to truly have fun, you have to deliberately blind yourself and refuse to consider any evidence that you're hurting somebody. Because if you pause to let your conscience kick in, you'll stop having fun.

So, I guess people need to look before they leap into the arena of fun, and consider what has to happen in order for them to have their fun.

[Ronagon]

And as far as the incest notion goes...

The problem with inbreeding, is that to get rid of those sneaky and nasty little horror genes that only express themselves between genetically similar couples, you have to go through a number of disposable "freak" generations, before all those bad genes are actually bred out.

After all, there are purebred strains of rat, which are used for experimental purposes. They are inbred like mad, without defects. Because all the defective generations have been bred out already, and destroyed.

The reason we don't allow incest in humans, is because we value human life too much, to knowingly go through all those "disposable" generations, in order to get a totally healthy, purebred strain. The idea would be monstrous...

That, and it just seems creepy as hell...

[zygoat]

hi all,
if sin is strictly a judeo-christian ideology,then only christians and jews are so called sinners.i do believe that we all need to come to certain terms on what is morally and socially acceptable and what is not,just to keep a certain order to things if for no other reason :ph34r:

[rich]

Originally posted by zygoat@Jun 23 2003, 08:02 AM
hi all,
if sin is strictly a judeo-christian ideology,then only christians and jews are so called sinners.i do believe that we all need to come to certain terms on what is morally and socially acceptable and what is not,just to keep a certain order to things if for no other reason :ph34r:
Thank you for your reply, Zygoat.

Thomas made an earlier reply, essentially giving Buddha's teachingsabout sin. (rich @ Jun 20 2003, 04:54 AM)
How does Buddha regard sin? Does he or she ever admit to doing wrong? ,making mistakes? intentionally harming another person to get even?
QUOTE Thomas' post:
Although Polaris has already answered this very eloquently, I like to add one specific point. The Buddha regarded actions that lead to unwholesome karma as unskillful. This means that all sins are mistakes in some sense, even if committed intentionally. The particular intention that leads to wrongdoing results from a misguided, deluded view. In some cases, these deluded views may be deeply entrenched, in other cases they are just temporary blindness. In any case, the only way to improvement is the abandonment of wrong views. According to the Buddha, this is the beginning and the end of the path. Perfect wisdom knows no sin.

Cheers, Thomas

In my opening post on this topic, I may have left the impression that some religions do not recognize wrongdoing as sin. I did not intend to convey that impression, for I believe most religions teach that doing harm to others is wrong, however the word used to desribe that action, may not be sin.
I think what you wrote would be nice, ie; trying to have all conform, but who is to make the correct calls?
After all, we did not make the mess we are in, or did we? But no one died, and appointed any of us as boss. The best thing any of us can do, is working with the tools given to us. :)

[Polaris]

I think that boredom leads to sin, because bored people can deal with that boredom any number of ways, even positively, but nothing generates as much melee and chaos as causing strife.

Ronagon, do you think that the majority of people who are bored wind up committing mischief?

Everyone gets bored now and then but only a small portion of the population actually generate melees, chaos and strife. It seems to me that the majority of people do not commit sin because of bordom. I think, of the people who commit melees, chaos and strife do so due to a lack of respect and a delusional sense of self entitlement.

The reason we don't allow incest in humans, is because we value human life too much, to knowingly go through all those "disposable" generations, in order to get a totally healthy, purebred strain. The idea would be monstrous...

hmmm, not exactly. First of all, I'm not sure there are actually any Laws regarding incest although I could be wrong. Generally speaking, those arrested for incest are being arrested for sexual abuse of a minor who is often related to the offender, as was the case of they families I spoke of earlier.

Families of nobility have been known to marry 1st cousins etc... to maintain the pure royal blood line. The result of this practice are diseases such a hemophilia. And IMHO, it would be next to impossible to breed a totally healthy, purebred strain of human through a practive of incest as you describe with the rats. Evolution would cease. The problem with such a 'purebred strain' of human would be that it would be extremely susceptible to disease and environmental changes. Sort of like silviculture. A forest of beautiful elms could be entirely wiped out in one season with an infection of the fungus of Dutch Elm Disease. So you might manage a pure race of human eventually but in order to survive long term we have to have the ability to evolve with what's evolving around us. Darwin would roll over in his grave. :o :blink:

[rich]

:) Dear Ron,
Ron said the following in his post:
[color=GREEN]
They forget that the person on the other end, is having a totally opposite experience. For a predator to enjoy the blissful feeling of a full belly, there logically has to be a miserable prey animal on the other end of things.

And very often, conscience and fun are inversely proportional. Many times, when you're having fun, you cannot see how it might be at the expense of someone else...

But there is also another truth that arises out of that: very often, the situation is such, that in order to truly have fun, you have to deliberately blind yourself and refuse to consider any evidence that you're hurting somebody. Because if you pause to let your conscience kick in, you'll stop having fun.

So, I guess people need to look before they leap into the arena of fun, and consider what has to happen in order for them to have their fun.

This post has been edited by Ronagon on Jun 23 2003, 03:03 AM </span>

So very true, the problem is, there are times we forget. So when we feel hurt, the times people say or do harm to us, let us remember the times we have acted the same way, by hurting them. If we are unaware of
ever hurting them, then we should tell them how they hurt us, and caution them not to behave that way again.

Polaris does not like to use the word, sin, for it sounds too Christian. OK, they still are transgressions to some degree. By not following , The Eightfold Noble Path of Buddha or The 10 Commandments, or some Neighbor Consideration Code, would promote more of a Me First Attitude, among all people, which would not be productive to society. :)

[dog goddess]

Originally posted by Ronagon@Jun 23 2003, 03:09 AM




After all, there are purebred strains of rat, which are used for experimental purposes. They are inbred like mad, without defects. Because all the defective generations have been bred out already, and destroyed.







it is a sin to experiment on animals. are we so arrogant to believe that our lives are more worthy? after all we, as humans, are the only ones capable of sin. live and let live. hurt nothing, give aid when it is needed. boredom does not lead to sin unless you are already a sinner. you are to what you pray.

[Polaris]

Polaris does not like to use the word, sin, for it sounds too Christian

Jeeez, that doesn't sound good. :unsure: It's not so much that is sounds too Christian but more that it is something I feel goes more hand in hand with God. It's not that I have anything against Christians, I just prefer words that are more generic that fit with all faiths, religions, ethnic backgrounds etc... . But then maybe "sin" is the generic word. :huh:

Oh, I also don't like the word "universe" even though I used it in a post in the "science" forum. It seems confining to label something which is allegedly infinite. Just one of my stupid idiosyncrasies. :blink:

[rich]

I am sorry, Polaris. I shouldn't have mentioned your name when posting about the opinions some have, when using the wordChristian.

Since you do not believe in the person of Godis existent, you may be right, since what ever I would say, you would have an answer to use to counter my point. Think that the pros and cons are equally matched, for what either of us say, none can prove the other wrong.
It boils down to, what do you want to beleve, and why?

However, the intent of this topic, is I have sinned, and our feelings or lack of feelings about me or anyone sinning. :unsure:

[rich]

Are all person's sinners?

I can not answer for anyone else but myself. It is
up to oneself to choose the standards or criteria one wants to live by.

That does not free me from following a code of conduct that would promote living in harmony with other human beings.

By being kind and compassionate to others, promotes harmony. Unkindness and lack of compassionate to others, promotes discord.

That which causes discord, is transgression, I think. I try to live in harmony. There are times I fail. :huh: :D

[Polaris]

I am sorry, Polaris. I shouldn't have mentioned your name when posting about the opinions some have, when using the wordChristian.

Since you do not believe in the person of Godis existent, you may be right, since what ever I would say, you would have an answer to use to counter my point. Think that the pros and cons are equally matched, for what either of us say, none can prove the other wrong.
It boils down to, what do you want to beleve, and why?

However, the intent of this topic, is I have sinned, and our feelings or lack of feelings about me or anyone sinning.

That's okay Richie. I wasn't offended. :)
Sorry it took so long to respond. I haven't been able to spend the time reading everything here lately because our household is currently undergoing that hectic business that occurs when the kids are through with school for the summer.

Are all person's sinners?

I can not answer for anyone else but myself. It is
up to oneself to choose the standards or criteria one wants to live by.

That does not free me from following a code of conduct that would promote living in harmony with other human beings.

By being kind and compassionate to others, promotes harmony. Unkindness and lack of compassionate to others, promotes discord.

That which causes discord, is transgression, I think. I try to live in harmony. There are times I fail.

I'm like you. I can't answer for anyone but myself.
In the generally understood definition of the word, I would say that I am a sinner. How can I tell? I can tell because I frequently do things which I regret soon afterwards. I am too hasty and it results in errors which may hurt others but also which I recognise as being careless on my part. I am not as mindful as I could be (should be) and to me, that's a sin.

I'm fortunate, however, because I recognise my shortcoming so I have the advantage of being able to do something about it. Each step forward opens a greater vista of awareness. :)

[...]

Sin, in it's original meaning before it was perverted to mean something else, is unawareness that leads to ignorance. It has no everlasting retributions, nor does a deity judge the sins committed, but because karmic law states there will always be a reaction to an action, you'll be burned by your own foolishness...

[Polaris]

Sin, in it's original meaning before it was perverted to mean something else, is unawareness that leads to ignorance.

Does "unawareness lead to ignorance" or do unawareness and ignorance travel hand-in-hand, side-by-side??

:huh:

[...]

Does "unawareness lead to ignorance" or do unawareness and ignorance travel hand-in-hand, side-by-side??

No. Unawareness is simply not knowing another avenue to trod, but it does leave open possibilities that lead to ignorance, when a certain mindset is adopted as if that mindset is truth.

[rich]

...,

Also, when two opposing mindsets/set minds oppose one another,
a neutral observer has a minimum of 4 choices.
[I]1. Agree with mindset [A].
2. Agree with mindset [B].
3.Come up with their own[C].
4.If none of the above, resort to [D] or :D & :lol:

[...]

Indeed Rich, once realised what the believer of beliefs is, there's alot of humour to be found when there's much ado 'bout nothing...

[rich]

...,
:lol: :P ;) :unsure: :blink:

[ianthe]

what is sin, really? if you think about it, sin is sin because we identify it as such. who knows what real sin is? is it not being right? is it not being good? but the premise of both is wide and extremely volatile. what is good in one part of the world i saintly in another. so who are we to say that we have committed a sin? it all boils down to how you think other people should live and act. isn't it pathetic? i guess the best we can do is just do what makes us happy and make sure no one is hurt on the way :)

[a random hack]

So when we feel hurt, the times people say or do harm to us, let us remember the times we have acted the same way, by hurting them. If we are unaware of
ever hurting them, then we should tell them how they hurt us, and caution them not to behave that way again.


Nice one, RT. May I just add, remembering how it feels to be hurt, when hurting others, and remembering how we have hurt others when we blame others for hurting us (as you said), maybe helpful in gaining an understanding of hurt. Probably more effective than asking / hoping hurt will be stopped from somewhere else...


:wub:


As for sin, I have heard a definition to the effect that 'Sin is seperation from God'. So now we nned to find out, 'What is God?' :rolleyes: , and "How do we know when we are seperated from God?'. I suppose we could add, 'Who cares?'

So, to paraphrase a book I read recently, God has been called 'The Creator'. On a personal level, I relate to this as 'The creator within Me'. in other words, my creative impulse. To this I would add my slim understanding of Hindu deity to come up with, my creative and destructive impulse.

I guess this would make Sin, as seperation from God, to be something like a creative block, writers block, artists block., that sort of thing... An inability to find 'inspiration', to creat, or an uncontrolable impulse to destroy. I guess an uncontrolable impulse to create could also be sin, by taking the balance too far the other way. Don't know, never met anyone who was worried about being TOO creative, but I guess the effect would be fairly detrimental to other aspects of life.

[liam]

it is not the question of sin. it is not the question of religion either. religion is the dictator of sin, but there are lots of them. so what should we believe in, there is always one ultimate being in all of them. as long as you know there is nothing wrong, no sin is made. but if there is even a slight idea in you that says it is wrong, then sin it is. but religion is the identifier of sin. freedom is the key. religion bounds us all from everything. we are sinners because we chose to grasp reality by the faith we embraced.

[ianthe]

Originally posted by liam@Jul 3 2003, 11:52 PM
.freedom is the key.
might be possible, but tell me liam, what is ur idea of true freedom?

[a random hack]

Freedom is freedom from the idea of freedom... :lol:

[rich]

If you are saying, anything goes, I strongly disagree. Then you mean, everything goes. No it does not, there are such traits as loyalty, committment and truthfulness. Those things are necessary for relationships to work. Some say, love is unconditional. That is true, but also, it can not be one sided, its a 2 way street.

When we go against what we think is right and what we think is wrong, then we are sinners. Likewise, when we follow what we think is right and wrong, we are not sinning.

Still I do not know, but I do know, I am not perfect. :)

[a random hack]

Gee, I sure know how to get a response...

RT,
You ever hear the saying, "Noone can make you a slave unless you allow them to make you a slave"?
Huh, what does this mean?
To me, it means that if you think you are a slave, you are a slave, unable to be free until you accept the possibility.
Another aproach, the one hinted at above, is to forget ideas of 'freedom' and 'slavery'. No matter where or what or who you are, no matter your situation, if you aren't worried about being free, or being beholden to someone, if the concept doesn't even enter you consciousness, you are free.
Well, that's the rhetoric, anyway :rolleyes:

[Mental Gremlin]

*dancing thru*

Incest...yuk. I have already had kids and my flawed genes are out there in the gene pool. Why concentrate them even more!?!??!

No sin...merely the production of chaos versus the creation of tranquility.

Create order and peace and chaos cannot spring forth.

[rich]

Originally posted by ianthe@Jul 3 2003, 06:23 AM
what is sin, really? if you think about it, sin is sin because we identify it as such. who knows what real sin is? is it not being right? is it not being good? but the premise of both is wide and extremely volatile. what is good in one part of the world i saintly in another. so who are we to say that we have committed a sin? it all boils down to how you think other people should live and act. isn't it pathetic? i guess the best we can do is just do what makes us happy and make sure no one is hurt on the way :)
Ianthe posted: i guess the best we can do is just do what makes us happy and make sure no one is hurt on the way :)

Our happiness in this life should not be our goal.

I do not think happiness in this life is possible due to the impermanence of all things, including our nature. The Buddha's Teachings, emphasize suffering. By following The Eightfold Noble Path, is away to end desire, and hence, suffering.

Do we know all things what will make us happy? How can we be sure that no one is hurt along the way?
I do not think we know, but by incorporating Buddha's Dharma into our living, may start us on the right track.

[Polaris]

No sin...merely the production of chaos versus the creation of tranquility.

The "No sin" part, I agree with. It's the rest of the statement I have trouble with.

1. What makes you think there is chaos?
2. What makes you think tranquility needs to be created?
:huh:

[Polaris]

I do not think happiness in this life is possible due to the impermanence of all things, including our nature.

Just my humble opinion of course. I think happiness is possible in this life although the impermanence of things does present a challenge. But if you accept the impermanence as every day suchness then you reduce one heck of a lot of suffering. It's difficult but not impossible. :)

[Mental Gremlin]

Chaos is expressed as suffering, if you see someone suffering you see chaos in action. The world is ordered in such a way as to make suffering nonexistent...as long as people dont interfere too much with the natural order, but since man is by his own nature a tool maker and user we disrupt the natural order, we shape and form it to our desires and throw the whole system out of whack instead of using tools in a minimal manner to ensure survival. I feel that since it is man who creates chaos it is man who must attempt to minimize chaos, thru the creation of tranquility or at least minimalizing the chaos he creates.

[Polaris]

Chaos is expressed as suffering, if you see someone suffering you see chaos in action. The world is ordered in such a way as to make suffering nonexistent...as long as people dont interfere too much with the natural order, but since man is by his own nature a tool maker and user we disrupt the natural order, we shape and form it to our desires and throw the whole system out of whack instead of using tools in a minimal manner to ensure survival. I feel that since it is man who creates chaos it is man who must attempt to minimize chaos, thru the creation of tranquility or at least minimalizing the chaos he creates.

By my definition, chaos does not exist. I've always considered chaos to be something without order. The closer I look at the nature of all things all I see is order. THIS happened because THAT happened .. etc... The world is ordered and part of that order is the role man plays in the world. We make tools because we evolved from goo in a puddle into cognizant, sentient creatures with opposable thumbs. Our species will rise and it will fall just like the goo we evolved from. Just like the dinosaurs. Our human attributes and what we have surrounded ourselves with today was ions in the making and is part of the system. People suffer not because they don't have the means to stop suffering but because they don't realize they have the means. If you like, tranquilty is the cessation of suffering. Not to be created, just to be realized.

By your definition, if chaos were defined as just the localized havoc mankind appears to create everytime he touches something thereby throwing the whole system out of whack then that is implying that man creates chaos. But with this in mind, what did man create chaos out of?
What of the Universe. Is it chaos? Did we create that too?
What was present prior to chaos?
Shouldn't tranquilty should be the absence of chaos and not something that can be created?
:huh:

[rich]

Tranquility and Peace,
Chaos and Confusion,
All part of The Illusion.
:)

[Polaris]

Tranquility and Peace,
Chaos and Confusion,
All part of The Illusion.

Makes for big business in Hollywood! ;)

[rich]

:) big business=big $$$$$$$$.00/100 ;)

[rich]

Originally posted by Polaris@Jul 18 2003, 02:51 AM
Tranquility and Peace,
Chaos and Confusion,
All part of The Illusion.

Makes for big business in Hollywood! ;)
Polaris posted:[b] Tranquility and Peace,
Chaos and Confusion,
All part of The Illusion.

Makes for big business in Hollywood! ;)
and many organized religions too. ;)

[Polaris]

QUOTE
Tranquility and Peace,
Chaos and Confusion,
All part of The Illusion.


Makes for big business in Hollywood!
and many organized religions too.


Ain't THAT the truth!! :)

[a random hack]

Read/ thought "accept the impermanence as every day suchness " as 'accept the impermanence as everyday suckiness' :lol::lol::lol:

[Polaris]

Read/ thought "accept the impermanence as every day suchness " as 'accept the impermanence as everyday suckiness'

That would go hand-in-hand with the "time flies when you're having fun" saying. :)

[a random hack]

:)

[rich]

Wonder what happened to Polaris? :huh:

Are you still here? :unsure:

No more posts? :(

[DavidS]

Originally posted by rich@Aug 7 2003, 08:18 PM
Wonder what happened to Polaris?
Am so wondering myself, Polaris.

[deepakgang]

What we call sin are just actions done by us to learn. Going good results in what ans doing bad results in what? Sins are not deliberately done Its a part of our lifes purpose to learn what yields what. We have free will to do whatever we want to. There are no sinners - only sins. All are experiments to learn.

[scameter]

Well, what exactly is a sin? I know what it is from the Christian point of view, but what is it really?

[scameter]

:P Confusing, eh? That's because it is dogmatic. Dogma is meant to be confusing because it makes it appear more sophisticated, which only shows me it's stupidity and arrogance.

[scameter]

Then why all the "or's"? All the apparent confusion?

[scameter]

Then why all the "or's"?

[deepakgang]

If something which we do make ourself feel guilty, we can call it a sin. Given that we know what we really did.

[scameter]

So then, if one lacks the ability to feel guilt, he cannot be sinful?

[deepakgang]

I dont think one lacks that. Like one can never live without heart pumping blood. The feeling is always there no? Like what i am doing is good or bad. That thought- if not guilt particularly.

[scameter]

I know, but I mean hypothetically.

[deepakgang]

The act is henious. But is he sinner who knows not what he is doing? He needs treatment.

[MidnightSun]

If its a crime get him in jail and if its a sin..leave that for God to decide.

[scameter]

I was just refering to this post, that if one does not feel guilt from commiting a sin/crime then is it even that?

[scameter]

Well yes, true. My father and I had a discussion on this point a while ago, that no matter your philosophical beliefs on a subject, if you commit a crime and are caught you're going to jail. The standards of the group far outweigh those of the individual because people are like sheep, they prefer to follow a herd.